Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:06:45 +1000 From: "z-fenwick.r" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Young AEL Members Hello Listers, I'm writing to see if there are any of the younger members on the list (teenagers to about 20 years old) or beginning AE readers who would be interested in helping me transliterate and translate some simple documents in hieratic and hieroglyphic and discuss them. I know from painful experience (I used to be one of these people) that there are people out there who are almost completely bewildered with the longer and more difficult documents. Also, I am interested in corresponding with young people who have a keen interest in languages. So anyone in either category who is having trouble with the more difficult texts please contact me. Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Eric" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Questions Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:02:18 -0400 Hey all, First off let me say how very happy I am that this group exists. I've been studying hieroglyphics for a very short time (about 2 months now) and am delighted to have found such a group of experts and enthusiasts. So far I've finished "How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphics" by Collier and Manley, which I loved. Next was "Hieroglyphics without Mystery". Now I'm going through Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar", which I am finding absolutely fascinating. This leads me to my questions: 1) Does anyone know of a solutions manual for Gardnier's book? Since I'm teaching myself without the aid of a teacher, I need all the correction I can get. 2) As to how transliterations are being tossed about in this group: how are y'all distinguishing between the different k's, h's, t's etc? Since the emails I've been reading have been in ASCII text and none of it pointed, how do you know which glyphs the person means? I'm sure this is a very amateurish question, but I'd like to follow the questions and answers as careful and as fully as possible. If the answer is "Once you've been doing this for as long as we have, we just know", then I guess I'll have to live with that. Thanks in advance... -Eric ============================================================================== From: "Randall Larsen" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL rainbow? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:57:58 -1000 Anczykowski, Further to your inquiry about and Egyptian word for rainbow. I speculate iwnt-bow means rainbow or perhaps cloth-bow (a headress?). Comments? Faulkner leaves the word untranslated in Pyramid text Utterance 57a. When I brought up the subject of rainbows in Egypt on the ANE list, many ANE Listmembers doubted that the Egyptians would have seen a rainbow often enough to have a name for it. Randall Larsen University of Hawaii at Manoa -----Original Message----- From: Michael Tilgner To: AEL Date: Sunday, July 25, 1999 2:16 AM Subject: Re: AEL rainbow? >See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in >the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Boris Anczykowski wrote: > >> is anyone aware of an Hieroglyph or any other symbol in the ancient >Egyptian >> language for a RAINBOW? > >Dear Boris, > >there might have been an AE word for "rainbow": >p:T9-t:N1 pD.t "*rainbow; *sky (designation)" [* = unclear, not yet >provable], Rainer Hannig, Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch [Great >concise dictionary Egyptian-German], Mainz, 1995, p. 300 >obviously derived from pD (pd) "to stretch, to be wide" and pD.t "bow" > >Best wishes, >Michael Tilgner >mtilgner@knuut.de > > ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:54:16 +0200 From: "rossi m." To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL OE grammar Good evening everybody, Does anyone have a bibliographical reference regarding an OE grammar? I already have the Loprieno, and got the reference regarding E. Doret's work. I am looking for books or papers written in english/french/italian because I don't speak german. Thank you very much in advance Mich=E8le Rossi-Ducci ============================================================================== From: "seneb" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Bitten by the duck Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:44:34 -0300 Hello, I hope this doesn't sound too "idiosyncratic", But I have something to say. Can't we just do away with transliteration? I mean, don't we internalize the sound of the heiroglyphs? I understand that at one point, it was important to be able to write it phoenetically , but I feel that if we are to endevour to understand this beautiful,sophisticated language, we ought to just study it in it's true form. Just a thought. Sean McCall -----Original Message----- From: abey@mindspring.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 5:16 PM Subject: AEL Modern uses of AEL >See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in >the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Are there "modern" uses of AEL that have been published? It would be >interesting for writers knowledgeable in the language to write about >current events using Medu Netcher. For example, renderings of the >Gettysburg Address, newspaper articles, or literature. Just a thought. >Amir Bey > > ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:31:37 +0200 Vincent Brown wrote: > I would like to note the difference in translation of line 10 from > Chapter 82 of the Book of the Dead when comparing the papyrus of Nu to > the papyrus of Ani. Both Budge and Faulkner have translated the line > from Ani as "..my throat is of Hathor.", while the same line from the > papyrus of Nu has been translated by Budge and Faulkner has "..my throne > is of Hathor." > Why does this difference between the two texts exist? Is there a > connection between the words throne and the throat? Is it a case of > Paronomasia? Dear Vincent, this difference is due to a scribal error, the scribe being Budge himself! The original publication of the papyrus of Nu is: E. A. W. Budge, The Book of the Dead. Facsimiles of the Papyri of Hunefer, Anhai, Kerasher and Netchemet with Supplementary Text from the Papyrus of Nu, London, 1899. - AFAIK it has not been reprinted yet. There is now a new publication: Guenther Lapp, The Papyrus of Nu (BM EA 10477), London, 1997 (Catalogue of Books of the Dead in the British Museum, 1) The author stated flatly in his introduction that "until now scholars have had to fall back on the decidedly unreliable hieroglyphic copies published by Budge in the last century." Photographic plates of the papyrus of Nu are reproduced, but no translation is given. Spell 82 is on pls. 26-27. The passage in question is on pl. 27, col. 10. It reads: ns=i m ptH Hty.t=i [m Hw.t-Hr] "... my tongue is Ptah, my throat is Hathor ..." Though there is a hole in the papyrus, the =i of Htyt=i, the rectangle of Hathor with the feet of the falcon (O10) and the goddess determinative (C9) are clearly recognizable. The word Hty.t with determinative F10 is beyond doubt. This phrase belongs to the "deification of the limbs" which is often mentioned in funerary texts, for example in the spells 42 and 172. A similar text is on the back of the famous gold mask of Tutankhamun. For more details see LAe II, 624-627, s.v. "Gliedervergottung" [deification of the limbs]. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Louvre C14 - Line 4 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:10:52 +0200 An offering which the King gives (to) Osiris ... Line 4 [di=f] pr.t-xrw [m] xA m t Hnq.t kA.w Apd.w Ss mnx.t "(that he may give:) an invocation-offering (consisting of) thousand of: bread (and) beer, oxen (and) fowl, alabaster (and) clothing," ix.t nb[.t] nfr[.t] wab[.t] "(and) all good (and) pure things" Lines 4 continues the offering formula. The di=f "that he may give ..." is missing here, but surely one has to add it. pr.t-xrw "an invocation-offering", HWB, p. 286 Wish no. 2 in the list of 314 wishes attested from the OK to the Greco-Roman period (Barta, Opferformel) It seems to me that the following offering list consists of two partial lists: (1) the "standard" offering list (2) an extended list of precious, exceptional food [next posting] [m] "consisting of" - see also Gardiner, paragraph 162, 5 (m of _kind_). m is missing here, but should be added. xa "thousand; many" - xa m "thousand of", HWB, p. 577 Paragraph 262, 2: "The words for 1,000 and 1,000,000 are sometimes written before their noun, which is usually in the singular, and are connected with it either by _m_ of predication or by the genitival adjective." The "thousand of" refers to each item of the following list; other inscriptions have the full form: xa m t xa m Hnq.t "thousand of bread, thousand of beer" etc. xa is not the specific number, but has the meaning "many". The following list is a common abbreviation of the full writings used in the offering formula: F1 "head of ox" "replaces kA E1 in the formula of offering" (Gardiner, p. 461) Gardiner, p. 170 reads kA.w Apd.w (both in pl.) with reference to full writings, p. 172 despite his remarks quoted above. S27 "horizontal strip of cloth with two strands of a fringe" abbreviation for mnx.t, p. 507 - note 1: "Sometimes with three or more strands" indicating some quality of the cloth, probably its breadth - here: S115 "... three strands ..." of the extended library. ix.t nb.t nfr.t wab.t "all good (and) pure things" A summary statement normally finishing the offering list, sometimes added by anx.t nTr im "on which a god lives" (p. 170) Please note that "_nb_ 'every, 'ny', 'all' and other demonstrative adjectives ... follow their noun, have precedence of position over other adjectives" (paragraph 48, 1). This list refers to the tomb inventory, not to the food offering, as it contains other things but food. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "David Howell" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Louvre C14 - Line 3 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:08:58 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > [mailto:owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk]On Behalf Of Michael > Tilgner > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 1999 4:25 AM > To: AEL > Subject: AEL Louvre C14 - Line 3 > > > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Line 3 > Htp di nsw (n) wsir nb Dd[w] > "An offering which the King gives (to) Osiris, Lord of Busiris," > Couldn't this be translated without amending the n: "An offering which the King and Osiris, Lord of Abydos give..." ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:55:47 -0700 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Paula Ashton Subject: Re: AEL Questions At 10:02 AM 7/26/99 -0400, you wrote: >See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in >the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hey all, > > First off let me say how very happy I am that this group exists. >I've been studying hieroglyphics for a very short time (about 2 >months now) and am delighted to have found such a group of >experts and enthusiasts. > . There has been one available for the first nine exercises at the Griffith Institute for several years: http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt.html There is also a key to Hoch's exercises at: http://www.newton.cam.ac.uk/egypt/ad/hoch as originally posted by him on ANE on 17 Sep 1995 Paula **************************************************************************** Paula Ashton Wind River Systems 510.749.2357 (voice) Administrative Assistant We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart? **************************************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:13:33 -0700 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions Eric wrote: > Now I'm going through Gardiner's "Egyptian > Grammar", which I am finding absolutely fascinating. Just be warned that quite a bit of what he says about verbs is incorrect. There was some discussion of this which is archived somewhere on the list's web site. > 1) Does anyone know of a solutions manual for Gardnier's book? > Since I'm teaching myself without the aid of a teacher, I need all > the correction I can get. Only for the first nine "lessons" : http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt.html > 2) As to how transliterations are being tossed about in this group: > how are y'all distinguishing between the different k's, h's, t's etc? > Since the emails I've been reading have been in ASCII text and none > of it pointed, how do you know which glyphs the person means? The standard way of encoding Egyptian in ASCII is in the Manuel de Codage. You can find more information on this than you probably need (or want) at http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm . However for your immediate purpose this diagram is probably all you need: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/trans1.gif You will quickly discover that some people on the list stray from this standard - the most noticeable being the use of 3 instead of A. > If the answer is "Once you've been doing this for as long as we have, > we just know", then I guess I'll have to live with that. Well, of course that is true, but you have to get the information from somewhere in the first place! Best wishes -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:51:37 -0700 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Kevin Shrieve Subject: Re: AEL rainbow? Speaking of colors, could anybody help me with AE hieroglyphs and pronunciation for these names from a lunar calendar I am creating for a role-playing system? Black Moon Green Moon Yellow Moon Orange Moon Red Moon Blue Moon Purple Moon White Moon Any help would be much appreciated. Kevin Shrieve kevin@lumiere.net ============================================================================== From: "Branimir Cucek" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Questions Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:59:51 +0200 Dear Eric, There is a link for a Key to Exercises of Gardiner's grammar at http://www.dfki.de/~nederhof/EAL/Gardiner.html On the same page there is a link to Manuel de Codage, a standard mostly accepted for transliterations in plain ASCII. There is also a Griffith's institute Key to Excercises at http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8.html Hope you will enjoy the links, Branimir Cucek Zagreb, Croatia P.S. Since you've finished Coolier&Manley book, maybe it will be of interest to you that there is a site with various corrections and discussions on this book. Read that too. It is at: http://www.ccer.theo.uu.nl/texts/ael/books/collier.htm Hope you will enjoy the links, Branimir Cucek Zagreb, Croatia ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: RE: AEL Louvre C14 - Line 3 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:29:05 +0200 David Howell wrote: > > Line 3 > > Htp di nsw (n) wsir nb Dd[w] > > "An offering which the King gives (to) Osiris, Lord of Busiris," > > > > Couldn't this be translated without amending the n: > > "An offering which the King and Osiris, Lord of Abydos give..." Dear David, if we see this one sentence only, your translation is possible, even inevitable. As we have thousands of inscriptions with the offering formula, including many variants it was tempting to find a common interpretation for all. In fact, two interpretations had been forwarded: one for the OK, one for the MK till the end of the Egyptian civilization. AFAIK it is common opinion now that the MK interpretation is that as described by Gardiner, p. 171: "A series of variants shows that the divine name which follows the phrase _Htp di nsw_ was now understood as a dative, though it is only at a far later period that the preposition _n_ was inserted. The best proof of this re-interpretation is the fact that, if one god is named after the phrase _Htp di nsw_, the following clause of purpose has _di=f_ 'that he may give' ... with a singular suffix-pronoun, whereas if several gods are named we find _di=sn_ 'that they may give'; had the king and the god (or gods) been still regarded as collateral givers of the funerary benefits, the verb _di=sn_ with plural suffix would have been found in all cases." However, "in the Old Kingdom the king and whatever god is named are mentioned _in parallelism_ with one another as givers of the boon or boons bestowed; the phrase _Htp di nsw_ is followed by the coordinated phrase _Htp di inpw ..._ 'a boon which Anubis ... gives'" The latter interpretation was questioned by Barta, Opferformel, on the grounds that (1) there is at least one example of a di=sn "that they may give" in the 6th dyn. referring to severasl gods (2) there are several variants of the 6th dyn. -- n god NN -- in god NN -- di in god NN -- god NN Htp di n with _in_ an OE writing of _n_ and several writing in the 9./10. dyn. of -- Htp di n god NN (3) textual evidence in the pyramid texts: -- Pyr. 1650-1651: "O all you gods who shall cause this pyramid and this construction of the King to be fair and endure: ... you shall have given to you a boon which the king grants of bread and beer, oxen and fowl, clothing and alabaster ..." -- Pyr. 495: "See me, O Re; recognize me, O Re ... If my lord ascends; I will not forget the boon which is given ..." Recently Helmut Satzinger, Beobachtungen zur Opferformel: Theorie und Praxis [observations about the offering formula: theory and practice], LingAeg, vol. 5, pp. 177-188 (1997) analyzed anew the inscription variants of the OK and returned to the view of two different interpretations of the offering formula. For the OK form he summarized that the god's formula is an apposition to the King's formula: "an offering which the King gives, (namely, at the same time:) an offering which god NN gives". He added: "The formula of the Old Kingdom gives the impression of being amply disparate ... Compared with this the formula of the Middle Kingdom is of logical structure, a manifestation of the principle _do ut des_: The god (of the necropolis, of the temple) will be programmed to fulfill the wishes of the individual." Satzinger did not take the cited pyramid texts into account. Our stela made in the transition period to the MK could be translated according to either the OK or the MK interpretation; I preferred the MK one. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "seneb" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Answers Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:07:50 -0300 Hello Eric, My name is Sean, and I have been studying AEL for about a year now, and I started with exactly the same set of books you have started with. After the first one you mentioned, I got "Middle Egyptian Grammar" by Hoch. Check it out. Another really good one is "Fascinating Heiroglyphs" by Christian Jacq. I hope that helps you . Here's the thing about Gardiner. It will undoubtedly help you with your knowledge, but it's a bit esoteric as you have noticed, and requires a bit more knowledge than you may have now to really get in to. But it will be beneficial to you as your own knowledge increases. Good luck Sean McCall ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL rainbow? Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:50:32 +0200 Kevin Shrieve wrote: > Speaking of colors, could anybody help me with AE hieroglyphs and > pronunciation for these names from a lunar calendar I am creating for a > role-playing system? Dear Kevin, for a list of colors in AE see: AEL archive week 71 "the meaning of KMT" June 20, 1998. Also: Rainer Hannig/Petra Vomberg, "Wortschatz der Pharaonen in Sachgruppen" [Vocabulary of the pharaons arranged by subjects], Mainz, 1999 -- Category "Farben" (colors), pp. 186-187 Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "Vincent Brown" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:50:18 -0700 Michael, Thank you very much for your reply. Unfortunately it seems that you misunderstood my question though. You blame the interpretation on Budge but you failed to explain how Faulkner arrived at the same conclusion. Why would both Faulkner and Budge translate the line from the papyrus of Nu as "Throne" when the presence of the F10 denotes the "Throat"? Was Faulkner copying Budges incorrect translation of the papyrus of Nu? Surely not, Faulkner so often disagrees with the translations of Budge that there would be no reason at all to make this assumption. Why did Faulkner make the same error of translating this word "Hty.t" as "Throne" when as you say the glyph for "Throat" (F10) is "beyond doubt"? Thank you, Vincent Brown. ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Louvre C14 - Line 4-5 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:10:38 +0200 Line 4 - continued t n Hsb[.w] H[n]q.t XAm.t "(further:) bread on allotment, beer of Khamet," DfA.w n.w "food of" Line 5 nb AbDw Dsr.t HD.t HsA.t mrr.t Ax.w wnm im "the Lord of Abydos, the djeseret-drink, the milk of the Hesat-cow, whereof the Akhs love to eat (or: (and) that of which the Akhs love to eat)" (and "to drink", I would think) Lines 4 and 5 continue the list of the offering formula. The following words are difficult to explain; it seems that there are not generally accepted solutions. t n Hbs.w "bread of allotment" - Hsb.w "(1) calculation, account ... (3) government assignment (allotment, allocation)" - Hsb.w "one who counts, one who adds" - Hsb "(1) a conscripted one, a recruit (2) [coll] conscripted people" all entries: HWB, p. 561 derived from verb Hsb "to calculate" (and the like), HWB, p. 560 LAe II, 333-334, s.v. "Frondienst" [conscription] Conscripted people are called Hbs.w in the MK, who had to work for government tasks, especially pulling stones. According to pReisner I-III a head of family had to work 72 days a year on the average. Therefore t n Hbs.w "bread rations"? How does such an explanation fit into the funerary context? Hnq.t "beer" - defective writing, Gardiner, paragraph 59 - for a more general discussion see AEL archive 108 "dropping consonants" (March 6, 1999) XAm see: xam "(1) to bow (2) to own, to possess", HWB, p. 583 XAm.t "a kind of beer" XAm.t-ix.t "*a lot of food", all: HWB, p. 631 Hnq.t XAm.t "beer (and) Khamet-beer"? I do not believe it, as the normal beer had been mentioned just before! Therefore XAm.t must be some qualification of Hnq.t, but it has a determinative W22 "beer-jug", too; another noun, hence: "beer of Khamet"? Perhaps Xam.t is an abbreviation of XAm.t-ix.t; therefore "beer of (some special) *food"? Some other proposal? DfA "food (often pl.)", HWB, p. 1006 nb AbDw "Lord of Abydos" (epithet of Osiris) What is "food of the Lord of Abydos" in particular? Dsr.t "* a strong beer (* a drink of exclusive kind)", HWB, p. 1016 LAe I, 789-792, s.v. "Bier" [beer] mentions a Dsr.t-drink made from a cereal Dsr.t not yet identified. HD.t HsA.t "'the whiteness of Hesat', milk", HWB, p. 560 LAe II, 1170-1171, s.v. "Hesat(kuh)" [Hesat cow] "Allusions to the Hesat-cow occur as early as the Pyramid Texts and continue up to the Roman Era ... In relation to the King the Hesat-cow fulfills, with the cow-goddess Sekhat-Hor, the role of a nurse to the royal and divine child ... Naturally she is also the bestower of milk, and is often named with Tenemit, the giver of beer." mrr.t imperfective relative form of mri "to love" Form and tense, see: discussion of Hss.t (line 2) Two interpretations are possible: (1) mrr.t has as its antecedent HD.t HsA.t or (2) mrr.t has no antecedent Ax "Akh, spirit", HWB, p. 11 The Akh is the form in which the dead lives in the netherworld like a living human: from bread and beer; for example: CT 134-135: "What will you live on in this land to which you have come that you may become a Spirit? - 'I will live on bread of black emmer and on beer of white emmer on the Field of Offerings...'" (Faulkner) wnm "to eat, to dine (_m_ of)", HWB, p. 198 ... mrr.t Ax.w wnm im "... whereof the Akhs love to eat" Gardiner, paragraph 383: In the case that the relative form has a direct semantic object different from the antecedent "the direct object has naturally to be inserted as grammatical object of the relative form, and, if pronomial, is represented by a dependent pronoun ... the English relative pronoun ('in which', 'for which', 'whose' etc.) is represented in Egyptian by a resumptive pronoun." Sometimes this resumptive pronoun could be omitted: "Elsewhere the absence of the resumptive pronoun is common only in association with _im_ in its various meanings" (paragraph 385). Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:33:09 +0200 Vincent Brown wrote: > you failed to explain how Faulkner arrived at the same conclusion. Why > would both Faulkner and Budge translate the line from the papyrus of Nu as > "Throne" when the presence of the F10 denotes the "Throat"? Dear Vincent, my copy of R. O. Faulkner, The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, London, 1993 shows the correct translation of the disputed passage of spell 82: "my tongue is that of Ptah, my throat is that of Hathor" (p. 80). Please could you specify your source of Faulkner's translation of the papyrus Nu? Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 00:21:42 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gisele Horvat Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 >Michael, > >Thank you very much for your reply. Unfortunately it seems that you >misunderstood my question though. You blame the interpretation on Budge but >you failed to explain how Faulkner arrived at the same conclusion. Why >would both Faulkner and Budge translate the line from the papyrus of Nu as >"Throne" when the presence of the F10 denotes the "Throat"? Was Faulkner >copying Budges incorrect translation of the papyrus of Nu? Surely not, >Faulkner so often disagrees with the translations of Budge that there would >be no reason at all to make this assumption. I have noticed other occasions when Faulkner's translations were identical to very unusual translations made by Budge. These similarities were too unusual to have been independently determined. Make of that what you will. Gisele ============================================================================== From: "Vincent Brown" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:24:20 -0700 Michael, Thank you for your response. I must apologise. I went and checked it out and you are right, Faulkner does translate the word as throat and not throne. Thanks for clearing that up. I am sure I have read other texts though, perhaps the pyramid texts that make a throat/throne connection. I know that sometimes the throat is associated with Isis and her name is hieroglyphically spelled with a throne so there is at least some connection there. Vincent. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Tilgner To: AEL Sent: Saturday, 31 July 1999 7:33 Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Vincent Brown wrote: > > > you failed to explain how Faulkner arrived at the same conclusion. Why > > would both Faulkner and Budge translate the line from the papyrus of Nu as > > "Throne" when the presence of the F10 denotes the "Throat"? > > Dear Vincent, > > my copy of R. O. Faulkner, The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, London, > 1993 shows the correct translation of the disputed passage of spell 82: "my > tongue is that of Ptah, my throat is that of Hathor" (p. 80). > > Please could you specify your source of Faulkner's translation of the > papyrus Nu? > > Best wishes, > Michael Tilgner > mtilgner@knuut.de > > > ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Louvre C14 - Lines 5-6 Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:35:13 +0200 Line 5 - continued n imAx.y xr wsir "for the one honored/revered by Osiris" Line 6 xr inpw nb tA-Dsr "(and) by Anubis, the Lord of the Sacred Land (= necropolis)" imi-rA Hmw.t sS *qs.ty (*gn.wty) ir.ti=sn "overseer of the 'body of craftsmen', scribe (and) sculptor Irtisen" --- this completes the offering formula --- Dd "who said:" tA-Dsr "Sacred Land (= necropolis)", HWB, p. 1015 imi-rA (mr) "overseer", HWB, p. 50 Hmw.t "[collectivum] body of craftsmen" - imi-rA Hmw.t "overseer of the body of craftsmen", HWB, p. 532 *qs.ty (*gn.wty) "sculptor, carver", HWB, p. 866 T19 "harpoon-head of bone": Gardiner, signlist, p. 514: "... qs ... For reason unknown, phon. or phon. det. gn in _gn.wt_ 'annals'; possibly also in _gn.wty_ (?) 'sculptor' (in relief), reading not fully established." see also: gn.t "memory (in written form)" (probably with the help of carved wood), HWB, p. 901 Hannig preferred the reading *qs.ty. Dd "who said" Gardiner, paragraph 450, 1: "Narrations are often introduced by _Dd=f_ 'he said' ... In texts of the early Middle Kingdom _Dd_ is used in the same way, and may be _sDm=f_ with ellipse of the subject." Another possibility is a perfective active participle, if one takes into account that the following was thought to have been spoken only once. Form: "As a rule no ending is shown ..." (paragraph 359) Tense: " ... reference to _past_ actions ..." (paragraph 365) One can read Irtisen's titles in another way: imi-rA Hmw.t sS[.w] *qs.ty[w] (*gn.wty[w]) "overseer of the 'body of craftsmen' of scribes (and) of sculptors" Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@knuut.de ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 16:35:53 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: "abey@mindspring.com" Subject: Re: AEL Book of the Dead - chapter 82 At 07:24 PM 08/01/1999 -0700, you wrote: >I am sure I have read other texts though, perhaps the pyramid texts that >make a throat/throne connection. I know that sometimes the throat is >associated with Isis and her name is hieroglyphically spelled with a throne >so there is at least some connection there. > >Vincent. > +++++++Another possible connection between throat and throne is inferred by F20, listed by Gardiner as "tongue of ox?". He describes it as a "sportive ideogram for in imy-r, 'overseer', lit. 'one who is in the mouth'". From this there seems to be a connection between the tongue, throat, mouth, with a throne, or authority. Any thoughts on that? Amir Bey ==============================================================================